drew sagan

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Posts by drew sagan

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  124

  Lets Debate the Trinity

  by UnDisfellowshipped in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  come on everyone, let us reason on the trinity doctrine using the bible!.

  you know there has to be at least 3 big long trinity threads on here per month... so i figured i'd go ahead and start one for november.. the bible says that there is only one true god who is god by nature, the only god who deserves our worship and prayer.

  jesus taught that his father is god.

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  drew sagan

  People line up on different sides of this debate based upon assumptions.

  If you believe the Bible to be a unified, cohesive, and noncontradictory then you will take the position that the trinity is either 'right' or 'wrong'. If wrong, another system will be put forward as the correct one.

  Yet, if you throw out that assumption you are left with something more complicated (and realistic). A series of books that may not necessarily agree with each other. The idea of a single cohesive theory melts away, and you are left to realize that the Bible speaks less about modern theologial debates than we think it does.
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  24

  People dont get disfellowshipped anymore

  by foolsparadise in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  they are announced as no longer being one of jehovahs witnesses.

  why then do people still shun them if they are not disfellowshipped.

  witnesses talk to non jws all the time, so we should be allowed to talk to members who are announced as no longer one of jehovahs witnesses.

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  drew sagan

  Has the Watchtower ceased using the word 'disfellowship' in its literature? I remember it fequently being used when I was in (left in 07)
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  21

  Luke 9:27. How does The Watchtower explain it?

  by VM44 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  luke 9:27 says:.

  "...but i tell you truthfully, there are some of those standing here that will not taste death at all until first they see the kingdom of god.".

  how does the watchtower explain this?.

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  drew sagan

  I don't think you used enough colors to get your point across Leolaia
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  6

  Examining a Scripture and a Paragraph from the Watchtower Daily--Nov. 2, 2009

  by sd-7 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  today's text: daniel 12:8: "now as for me, i heard, but i could not understand.

  " comments were taken from 1/15/08 watchtower.. november 2, 2009.

  5:30 a.m. greeted us with the daily text.

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  drew sagan

  One thing that always got to me:

  If these articles were important enough to be fortold centuries ago in the bible, how come the Watchtower doesn't even bother to reprint them? The same thing goes for these amazing talks that supposidly fulfilled scripture.

  If they are this important, why not let us get copies?
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  19

  Fade rapidly OR jeopardise the fade by helping family/friends learn the truth and remain part of our lives?

  by LUKEWARM in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  can i say from the outset that i feel grief and frustration over family/friends that are not aware of the truth about the "truth".

  they are good people who genuinely believe - as we all did at one time- that they are in gods organization and that this is what he requires of them.. .

  how liberating for us to have come to know the real truth and how sad they remain guilt ridden and under mind control that fosters these conditional friendships that bother us so much.. .

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  drew sagan

  We tried to fade over two years ago. My wifes has JW family, I do not. It turned out that her mother simply would not let her fade away. She got turned into the elders for joining the YMCA. This eventually led to me DA myself and my wife getting DF'd.

  Two years have passed. Both me and my wife had hoped that the misery that has resulted because of the WTS garbage would serve as a wake up call. We're still waiting. We just went through some stuff with her JW family a few weeks ago and they still are determined as ever to protect the WTS and defend the religion.

  After a great deal of dissapointment, my wife has come to believe that there really is nothing you can do for them. They have to be willing to make the first step. Try and help them and all you will end up doing is driving yourself crazy.

  Your situation may be different, but from what I have read on this board, you best think long and hard before you start trying to show people 'the real truth'. It can end up in a one way ticket to crazy town.
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  160

  Jehovah's Witnesses---A Cult or Not?

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  when i first got on this site, i would bristle at the thought that i ever belonged to a cult.. do you believe that witnesses are truly "cultists"?.

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  drew sagan

  This reminds me of something Ray Franz wrote:

  On the points they present, opponents of the Witness religion are quick to categorize it as a “cult” and speak of members being “brainwashed.” One thing that I believe each of us needs to recognize is our own personal responsibility in accepting error. We cannot fully divorce ourselves from responsibility for our decisions, even though misleading information contributed to the decision. There are always reasons for our having accepted claims that were only partly supported, motives for what may be called a passive acceptance.

  Without a doubt, the Watchtower uses misinformation, intimidation, and fear to gain control of its members. However, those who actually chose to join the group (as opposed to those 'born in') had reasons for believing what they were taught. I was young at the time, a bit naive, and simply displayed more trust than I ever should have. Of course, I actually enjoyed those early years with the JWs a great deal. It brought me very little in the way of immediate pain. I did not suffer until years later, after I had been subjected to that lifestyle for about 4-6 years.
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  74

  I need answers to so MANY questions.....

  by Confuzzled in

  1. jw
  2. friends

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  drew sagan

  My criticisms of the 5 translators frauds that translated the JW Bible, were only met with him trying to read me what I guess was the prologue to his Bible. "I don't want to hear you f***ing propaganda!" only got me an angry hang-up.

  You may find the comments on this thread worth reading:

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/179417/1/Is-the-NWT-the-best

  I'd rather talk to a Professor of Religion or Sociologist with expertise on these matters, non brainwashed sheep.. Although it doesn't take a master's degree to see what the hell is going on

  Books have been written on this subject.

  http://www.commentarypress.com/

  These kinds of situations arise all the time here. Its becomming kind of a cliche to suggest that you offer one of these books for your friend to read. Yet, that's about the best you can do.
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  77

  How do you know the Bible is from God?

  by cognac in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i really want to believe it, but, sometimes it is very difficult to figure out how it can be from god.

  i mean, in the old testament, he seems horrible in some instances.

  the adam and eve thing doesn't make to much sense to me.

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  drew sagan

  Just wanted to add:

  Regarding belief in god, this has to be my all time favorite thread on this board....

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/123482/1/Maybe-Theres-a-Heaven
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  77

  How do you know the Bible is from God?

  by cognac in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i really want to believe it, but, sometimes it is very difficult to figure out how it can be from god.

  i mean, in the old testament, he seems horrible in some instances.

  the adam and eve thing doesn't make to much sense to me.

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  drew sagan

  You bring up an excellent example:

  2 Timothy 3:16 (New American Standard Bible) 16 ( A ) All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

  Define what the authory of 2 Timothy means by "scripture". Does this include his own book? Does it include other NT books that may have not yet been written?

  These are important questions. The Watchtower typcially applies this passage very broadly (others do too), yet it is clear that to apply this verse to a collection of books organized centuries after the passage was written may not reflect the authors original intent.

  For some further clairification, Ehrmans book is an introduction to NT scholarship. It is not a religious text. It does not discuss what to "beleive". It is actually structured for use in an academic setting. That said, I've read it and think it is a great intro.
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  77

  How do you know the Bible is from God?

  by cognac in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i really want to believe it, but, sometimes it is very difficult to figure out how it can be from god.

  i mean, in the old testament, he seems horrible in some instances.

  the adam and eve thing doesn't make to much sense to me.

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  drew sagan

  Drew, if that is the case, how do we know which books are from God and which are not? Will that link go into that?

  The link provided (which goes to Bart Ehrmans intoductory text on the historical New Testament) discusses the complexity of discovering the "real bible". The book does a great job at giving the reader a better idea of what is going on in the world of New Testament scholarship. For instance, it introduces the readers to good bit of evidence that throws doubt on the traditional opinions of authorship for some NT books (especially Hebrews, as well as 1 Timothy, and more).

  Taking the time to learn more about the context of the bible certainly creates a more nuanced view of the texts. I think the important thing to realize is that there are two components to "the Bible". There is the text (which can sometimes be disputable due to variations in manuscripts), but also there is the stuff that people (i.e. you, me, and everybody else) puts on top of that text. This includes ideas like "the bible is a letter from god to his children", or "the Bible tells a story about life from beginning to end". The Witnesses, for example, love to talk about how the "theme of the Bible is Gods restoration of Paradise".

  Where do these things come from? From the text itself? No. You cannot explicitly find these things inside the text itself. Rather, people read these things into the text. Getting away from this mindset is liberating, regardless of whether or not you eventually decide to be a christian (or jew, or whatever else!)